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Holly Moses 0:05
Welcome to the autism ADHD podcast. I am so happy that you joined me today I want to take a moment and ask for your help. Please take just a second and give the podcast a five star review. This will help me continue the podcast and keep bringing you helpful information. Thanks so much again for taking the time to give that five star review. Now let's get started. Welcome Kirk Barton to the autism ADHD podcast.

Kirk Martin 0:39
Hey, Holly, I'm psyched to be here. This is. I'm

Holly Moses 0:42
I'm so glad that you're here too. I'm going to introduce you real quick. Celebrate calm.com founder and calm parenting podcast host million parents how to stop the yelling, defiance, shown almost 1 and power struggles. A, building a close connection with neurodivergent children. Kirk is known for very practical strategies and scripts delivered with humor and compassion. And we, both all about humor and compassion.

Kirk Martin 1:12
Yes, sometimes too much.

Holly Moses 1:16
Sometimes, too much. Okay. So today, talk about these eight Musto neurodivergent parenting tips that are also really good for therapists and educators. So these are excellent for everyone. Are you ready? I'm ready. All right. Number one, your kid is not broken.

Kirk Martin 1:39
Yeah, they're not. Society sends a message that your kids are broken, that there's something wrong with them. And there isn't. They're different, but they're not broken. And there's nothing wrong with them. Sometimes you have to go through a grieving process like we did, especially me like I to be honest, I didn't like my son when he was little. And because everything's difficult, right? And you're always told like, well, if you're just firm, and you follow through, when you give them consequences, your kids will listen to you. And we did all those right things. And yet he was still everything was just different. And all that kind of typical strategies from all the typical books and typical advice, backfired on our son. And so our first thought was, oh, what if there's something wrong with him, and your mindset becomes, oh, we need to fix this kids. And kids, nobody likes to be fixed. And so no, part of our change was, it was just me, it was my own control issues. I couldn't control myself all my anxiety. So when I began to change myself, I saw my son in a different way. But you have to go through sometimes a grieving process, right? Of like, hey, our paths, right? Because when you look, when you become a parent, you're like, you have this vision of like, well, we're gonna have kids in the white picket fence, and we're gonna raise them according to like, these good principles, and they're gonna grow up and just go through high school and go to college and get a good job. And then somewhere along the line, you figure out oh, like, art, like, we were kind of joking before, of like, you know, all the kids who make honor roll when our son was little, our bumper sticker was like, our son didn't get suspended this semester. We're like, good semester, son. And so, but I don't want to go through life trying to fix them or think there's something wrong. And by the way, I don't want you as parents to think you did something wrong. You didn't cause something to go wrong. Like, we can adjust how we parent them, obviously. But there's nothing wrong with them. And it's you didn't do something wrong, either.

Holly Moses 3:39
I love how you say that. Because I think that's true. It's something that comes up a lot. This idea where if someone doesn't look this way, then we need to fix them. Right? And what we do, and I think, you know, that's a human thing to think. And I was sharing with you before we started recording, it's like, oh, you know, I see all these people sort of posting pictures of prom and whatever. And they're, you know, that looks so fun. Um, but that doesn't mean that my kids are wrong or need fixed because maybe they won't do those things, because that doesn't interest them. Right. And so I think that it's this very different way of thinking, if you catch yourself thinking, we need to fix this or this needs to happen or all the chips come in. I think that's great to be able to forgive yourself first for thinking those things. Definitely don't say them. Right? Think about changing your approach because one way isn't the best way. It's just the way you thought maybe things would happen or the way you usually see things happen. That doesn't mean that it's the right way.

Kirk Martin 4:52
Right? There's not one way, right like it's the individual child has a path. And look, I think our kid are going to have the more difficult path in the short term. Right. And I always like to say, it's almost like they get the hard living out of the way as kids. And so I do joke and but I think it's true that sometimes the compliant easygoing kids that kind of sail through childhood, when they're 25, and they get fired from their first job, they're like, oh, my gosh, someone rejected me. And the strongest child is going to be like, nobody's like me since I was born. Right. And then they're used to facing challenges. So there is a certain amount of this that you have to see, I guess my advantage I have is our son is 30. Now, so seeing the arc of life, that's like, all those things our son struggled with, when he was a kid, actually make him very strong and resilient in the adult world now. So perspective really helps. And that's why I'm glad you have your podcast, because you just every week, it's like Perspective Perspective, and it really helps people. Well,

Holly Moses 5:57
I appreciate that. And, you know, when I think about walking in, and you know, I'm neurodivergent, myself, I know you are as well. So walking in those shoes and thinking when I was younger, were like, I did this wrong, and I did that wrong. And everything I did was wrong, is what it felt like, I don't know if that was your experience. But I don't want that for my kids. I want them to know that they are accepted for the awesome people they are, even though it may not be this path that I thought are we all did, and you refer to like, Oh, this is the path, you know, you go through school and you graduate and you go to college, and then you get married and you have kids or whatever. But who decided that right? Like you decided that that was the way it needed to be? And it doesn't, you know, this path looks different for them. But it's not bad. Does that make sense? Like it's it's not less in any kind of way. Yeah. And

Kirk Martin 7:00
I think it's important to normalize that and to say, like, I love the phrase, of course, of course, your path is different, because you're different. But there's nothing wrong with that your path will look different than the other kids. And you're going to like what I taught my son is you're going to struggle in these areas, right? It wasn't saying like, you're weak, it was no, you're just naturally going to struggle, right? Like with authority figures, you're always going to want to speak up and do it a different way. Here's an appropriate way to do it differently. And to, I think, normalizing, I could have used that as a kid, because as a kid, I felt like in high school, I knew I just didn't fit but I knew one day, I'd be kinda like good husband, good dad, I knew I'd do well in the adult world. And I wish I'd had some come along and say, You know what? This stuff is like, fleeting, like, you're only going to be like a teenager for a little while you're going to be an adult, for like, 70 years. So just kind of like, get through it. And then like, that's why I tell middle school kids like this is the hardest time of your entire life. Like if you feel awkward as a middle schooler. Good, you should, because you're really awkward. I'm kidding. You don't say that. But you normalize things. Can I do one other thing, Holly, because it's a big deal to me. Of course. I know, it's kind of off of our little thing. But it's that normalizing anxiety for kids, like anxiety is a very typical comorbid thing that comes with neurodivergent people. And I think one of this is my own opinion, is one of the worst things we're doing with kids has been like, Oh, I'm sorry, you have anxiety, let's talk to someone about your anxiety all the time, you'll make someone really anxious. And I'd rather normalize and say, of course, you're anxious about going to that new taekwondo class, like you're having to go to someplace new, you don't know when anybody you use struggle getting getting along with kids your own age. So you're, you're nervous about that you're not always great at doing sports. So you should be anxious about going to a new place, rather than saying, I don't know why you're anxious. There's nothing to be worried to worry about. And then the child begins to internalize, well, if I shouldn't be anxious, but I am, maybe there's something wrong with me. And I'd rather tell them, No, of course, right? Of course, that writing assignment that you're doing is hard, because you have this busy brain with all these ideas. And it's really hard to get those thoughts from head to paper. So I'm going to give you some tools to do it differently. But of course, that's hard. Because otherwise, we consent consistently say, Look, if you would just focus, that assignment isn't hard. Well, if it's hard for me, then I must be stupid, and there's something wrong with me. So I think there's a great value in normalizing what they're going through, instead of making them feel like there's, they're so different, or there's something wrong. I hope that I hope that makes sense.

Holly Moses 10:07
No, I'm glad that you brought that up. And it's so interesting because you and I've never talked about this before. My favorite thing to say is, of course,

Kirk Martin 10:16
is it really? It really? Of course, of course, great minds think alike. Right?

Holly Moses 10:25
Right. And so I think of it is, again, we're not going to act like the anxiety is not there. That's kind of ridiculous. And like you said, act like it's not happening. No, it's happening. Right. And it's often based, like you were saying, on my previous experiences, where I felt anxious, or when you don't know what's gonna happen, anxiety is very much a fear of future.

Kirk Martin 10:51
Well, it's preparing them for the future. Look, anxiety is caused by unknownst, things you can't control, it's a very normal thing. And you shouldn't feel bad. If you feel anxiety, you should actually know that's a normal, healthy response to new situations, it puts you on alert of like something. So given that that's normal, here are two or three ways to handle that inevitable anxiety. And now you're teaching your child, this is the way you're this is the way you operate in the world. This is what you're going to encounter. It's normal. So here's how you do that in those situations, rather than making it something kind of, like there's something wrong with you, or that it's odd. And our kids are so

Holly Moses 11:36
right. And it's not I love that you said normalize that because we don't do that enough. And that's what I say often in sessions with peoples, of course, you would, why wouldn't you? Instead of us, there's nothing to be anxious about? Well, there is, there's the fear of rejection, there is the idea that you're going to be nervous in the future that you're going to want to avoid, you know, all these things. But when you understand that anxiety is going to come with you. But you're gonna do it anyway, with these strategies. It's it's amazing what a difference that can make.

Kirk Martin 12:14
I agree, of course.

Holly Moses 12:17
Just like you and I, right, I mean, being putting yourself out there. That's risky.

Kirk Martin 12:22
Yeah, then I think there's, I just think there's great value in teaching them how their brains work, how they operate, and say, I did it with our son all the time. For that case, here's how other kids, here's how other adults go through life, they're going to do that. And here's this other path. And so I want you to get comfortable with the fact that your path is going to be different, your stove toucher. You'd like to touch the hot stove, and I'm not going to get you to stop touching the hot stove. It's part of who you are. It's how you learn best. So here's, here's how you use that quality in life without getting burned too badly, because they will get burned a little bit. And I'm talking metaphorically, although anyone touching the stove, we don't want anybody touching the stove. Although I guarantee many of your parents listening, have kids who have just done that. But learning, learning that the way that they're made is good. And I think that's even a little shift of like, No, I like the way you're made. I like these qualities, they're going to serve you well in life. And one thing I taught my son and we teach kids is, look, these things are going to make it harder for you in school. Because that's an honest statement, right? Like, look, you don't have you struggle with short term memory. So here's what I want you to know, the only time in life that you really have to use short term memory is in school to memorize information for tests for the rest of your life, you will use strategic thinking, you're a good strategic thinker, you have good critical thinking skills. That's why you're so good at arguing with me. You see patterns in life. That's why you're so good at chess and checkers. You know what I'm going to say already before I even say it because you cataloged all of my lectures. Right? Those qualities though, when you get to the real world, the adult world are going to serve you well, because companies will pay you a lot of money, not to regurgitate and memorize information, but to be a good thinker, and you're a good thinker. And I think something that's coming out of me, as I'm saying that is to stop living in on the defensive. Because as parents of these kids, we tend to be defensive, like because other people, teachers, parents, therapists judge us all the time. Well, why aren't you doing that? Why is your child doing that? And I want you to feel confident to say, oh, no, these qualities do make it harder as a kid, but in the real world, man, my child is going to my child is going to thrive. And just to add a little humor sometimes when people would judge Casey I would say, Hey, you better be nice to my son because one day you're compliant neurotypical kids are going to be working for my son, because he's the kid who's going to own the business and need some compliant people that he can pay very little money to. Because they're just real. I'm kind of kidding. But I'm not. But I like that. But I want parents to have a little bit of that confidence in there to say, No, I'm not on the defensive here. There's nothing wrong with my child, my child is going to thrive. He's just going to struggle in arbitrary situations, right? Like sitting still, when you're five years old in circle time. Like if you have one of these kids, and you don't get a call at the beginning of the year from preschool teacher, something's wrong. I expect kids to get up and start walking around the class, because that's what they're supposed to do at age five. So sorry, I just ranted a little bit. No, I

Holly Moses 15:50
love it. It's true. I am fully convinced that, you know, hear these beautiful creative thinkers. We want them Oh, no, you do what we say when we say it. Right? Well, should they? I mean, it's right. I mean, it's okay to question things and think differently. And so, so creative, and, you know, my kids, the kids I work with are the best humans. So number two, don't let people put your child in a box.

Kirk Martin 16:22
I think it's what we've been talking about, you're going you as the parent, you get to make the decisions, you are responsible for your child's education, not the teachers and not the school system. And there were times where, you know, practical sense of, we would just tell the teacher in a nice, respectful way, because teachers have a hard job, right? Like, like, we have trouble raising one or two, neuro divergent kids. But imagine you have like eight or 10 of them in your class, like it's not easy. So I would talk to Casey's teachers and say, I really appreciate that you want to teach my son so Well, I appreciate you giving them homework, because you want him to learn, I just want you to know some nights, we're not doing homework. Now, we're always learning. Some nights, we're going to build a robot some nights, we're just going to go out and play because play is learning. But we're not always going to do his homework assignment. And it's okay with us if you mark his grade down, because we're not interested in grades, we want to raise a curious child who loves to learn. And so that takes some confidence, though, because when you're an IEP meetings, it's usually one parent, or maybe two surrounded by 14 Different people with master's degrees, right? And you get overwhelmed with that. But no, trust your instincts. As a parent, I want you to trust your instincts to know, no, this just doesn't feel right. And I don't want I want to resist what your inlaw say what your own parents say, because they're going to judge you. And you just you know, Holly's podcast, other resources too, just to feel confident knowing I'm doing the right thing, even if it doesn't always feel easy, or even if it looks different than everybody else is doing it. Yeah.

Holly Moses 18:14
And I liked that. You said that too, is you are really standing in for them. Because it's true. There are so many comments, unsolicited, by the way.

Holly Moses 18:37
It's, it's true. And so we're like, okay, yeah, thank you for that. But like you said, putting your child in a box, that's okay, that your kid maybe does something different. I remember going to was an open house for the for the class, and, you know, all the kids handwriting it was a project was up on that wall. And I knew immediately which kid was mine, right? Because it was extremely difficult to read. And very, very different from all the other kids. And he was concerned about all the parents seeing, you know, his handwriting. And I was explaining to him that, you know, most people don't even write very much when they're older they type in not only that my handwriting is hard to read. I have a hard time reading it myself, and has nothing to do with being smart. And look how creative and lovely the way you wrote that I think it's so beautiful. And you know, really thinking again, like we were talking earlier for number one in a very different way all because they're, you know, jumping out of that box or maybe standing next to it or far away from it. It doesn't really matter, it's about supporting them where they are. And remembering, like you said homework, that curriculum was not built for them, period. Right? It was not built for them. So we're expecting them to do something that's not at all built for them. Just like it would be extremely uncomfortable for someone to tell me that I'm expected to do something I am completely not built for. You

Kirk Martin 20:25
know, we use that example a lot Holly, like, if I were to take a highly creative person and say, Hey, your job tomorrow is you're an accountant, your your livelihood is based on being an accountant. Or if I switch that, and I took an accountant, and I said, Hey, you're the accountant at the advertising agency. Tomorrow, your new job is to be creative director to come up with really creative ads. Well, what would happen, I come in his office, or her office couple days later and say, Hey, do you have some new ads for us? Well, I'm just, I'm not good at this. You know, that just sounds like excuses. If you would apply yourself, you'd be capable of doing this, you're smart, all the things people say to our kids. But so if you put your you put kids in the right environment, they can thrive. But we also know certain things they're just not going to be good at. And it wouldn't, it's not fair to ask you. Because I know even though you're highly organized, I would not want you Holly running the books for my company, that's not. And what would happen after a while is you would make mistakes. May is your boss, in this case would be right get on you have like, hey, you need to be more careful, you would start to feel like a failure. And you're a highly intelligent person. And just look, if we put you in a different job for two weeks, I could basically ruin your self confidence. Because you would sit there every day saying I don't know what to do. And everybody would be around you saying, Well, why don't you just try harder. And you would get angry inside, and you'd feel frustrated. And you would want to give up. And so that if you can think about it that way. In some ways, that's what we ask our kids to do all the time. It's just they're not good. And I and that's where that normalizing of things and giving perspective of like, look, you're not going to have to do this the rest of your life. This is very arbitrary. I

Holly Moses 22:21
love that example, so much. And it makes me think of one of my first jobs where I was a hostess for a restaurant. And I was also the person that had to run the cash register. And I was horrible at it. And I told them that I have not been tested, I would imagine my processing speed, I'm not quite sure what my overall IQ would be. Maybe a bit higher, but the processing speed would probably be lower, like a lot of people with with ADHD and also my working memory, like a lot of people with ADHD. And then also I think I would probably meet criteria for a math learning disability. And for that time, back in the olden days, there was no cash register that told you what to give back. Right? So lines of people would be yelling at me, giving me change that made absolutely no sense for their meal, it would take forever, my draw was always off and they were constantly mad at me. Right. And I can't imagine that the only way I got through that is someday I'm going to be somewhere doing something where my strengths are, where everyone isn't yelling at me and disappointed with me all the time. I

Kirk Martin 23:43
mean, we could, you know, we could end it there that the discussion on that I don't want to, but on that part of just countering that negativity that, you know, we just did. I just did a podcast on that on countering that. That negative internal dialogue. So can I do a quick example? And then Ali? It's related? Yeah, of course. So So I'm doing this phone consultation with this great couple. And their son is a slower processor, like you said, and so the teacher can't keep sending home notes. Oh, I'm so concerned because it's taking 40 minutes instead of 20 minutes to do this. And, and just think what's beginning to form in this child's mind. I'm slow. That means I'm stupid. I'm not as smart as other people. Something's wrong with me. And you know, those that in turn those internal narratives, they can last a lifetime. But if the parents on this case, if the parents and teachers were like, Dude, you know why, like how you process information because you're a deeper thinker. Yeah, you're slower because you're considering all the different options. Sometimes you give an answer. That's not even in the tea. And this was true. You give an answer that's not even in the teacher, workbook and the teacher guide because you're such a good thinker. So I'd love that you're a good thinker. And so we can change that internal dialogue. So now the internal dialogue is, I'm a slower processor, because I'm a deeper thinker. I'm a problem solver. I consider many different angles. One day, a company is going to pay me a lot of money, because I'm a problem solver. And that's the same exact kid. But the parents and teachers perspective is different. And that kid will be raised entirely differently in an entirely different way. Just having that different mindset.

Holly Moses 25:33
And I'm glad that you brought that up. And that's so powerful, because the kids that I see this foundational belief, right, it just really soaks in and I'm bad, you know, constant criticism. And you take that on, and you wear it heavy, right, and you believe it. And even you know, I'll be 50 This year, I still sometimes in time, especially in times of stress, I'll default back to that I can catch myself a lot earlier than I used to, obviously. But I see that damage that that can happen and how we approach things for our kids and our students and our clients can really change everything for them.

Kirk Martin 26:18
Absolutely. It's why I'm glad you're doing what you're doing. Holly, welcome.

Holly Moses 26:23
Back. Gotcha. All right. Number three, parent them differently. And we, you know, touched on this already, too.

Kirk Martin 26:32
Yeah, it just takes a different approach. They're motivated by different things I use. Now, this is my own thing. But I, I talk to kids differently, I use a different tone of voice, I like a very even matter of fact, tone of voice. So even when I'm complimenting, strong willed kids, the kids we work with, I don't make it a big deal. Oh, buddy, I'm so proud of you. Because it sounds condescending to them, it's kind of sounds like we never thought you'd actually make a good choice. And you just did. So let's celebrate. When the other thing, too much of that also puts pressure on them because they internalize, hey, wait, you're you're all excited that I did this. Well, now you're going to expect that again. And I can't guarantee so my tone of voice with them is Hey, nice job on that project. Fist bump shows me your grown up here. Really nice choice there. Even matter of fact, I plant little seeds, there are 100 different things I probably do with these kids that I wouldn't do with, say, neurotypical kids. So you're just going to have to parent differently, you know, when when they get really upset. Instead of talking? Well, honey, let's talk about our feelings. With strong bulk our kids that tends to make them furious, lots of talking to does. So with these kids, what I learned to say is common example, a little kid makes a paper airplane throws it doesn't fly well. So he's gonna crumple up the paper and throw it down this airplane stupid. And most of us as parents come in, Oh, honey, that was a good airplane, they're going to like da who's a good airplane, it would have flown well. So instead, I come in with some intensity. And I say, Man, if I were you, I'd be frustrated to put a lot of time into that airplane, it didn't fly, right? That's frustrating. That intensity of validation for these kids is often very calming, because now you're taking it seriously, that what they did was important to them. And it didn't work out right. Now what I didn't say was, so therefore if I would you were you, I punch a hole in the wall, or go hit your sister, I didn't say that I just said you should feel frustrated. And then I usually give them some space and say, Look, I'm going to go get a grip glass of water when I get back. Let's problem solve, how to do this differently next time. So then I removed myself give them some space to process all of their feelings without standing over them. Because I it's kind of, and I'm saying this this is my own opinion doesn't mean Holly believes this are teachers. This is my own. But I don't give eye contact to kids when they're really, really upset like that, because usually they're embarrassed and ashamed. So when I remove myself rather than standing over, Honey, let's talk about your emotions right now. That works with certain kids. But with the kids that we've worked with, I tend to give them a little space to process and then I come back. And I'm not staring at them while they're upset. So that was a couple examples of hey, there's nothing wrong with them. I'm just going to parent them in different ways, because typical ways tend to backfire.

Holly Moses 29:41
Yeah, I agree. It's so interesting that we're having this conversation because I am going to be covering how to communicate differently at times, especially of high anxiety and frustration. I feel like when somebody is upset and certainly Every one is different. But a lot of kids that I work with, including my own, you know, if you are talking talking, it is more anxiety, it's more frustration, it's fuel on the fire. And that doesn't help anybody. So what I'll usually do is, you know, let me know, if you want me to stay quiet, I absolutely will or let me know when you're ready to move forward or to talk about this. And really, you know, they, a lot of times when they're frustrated, feel like they have no control over what's happening right then. And I want to say, Yeah, being able to say, You know what you tell me when you're ready, instead of, again, putting more fuel on the fire. And I think we naturally do this as humans, right? We want things to be better, we want to make things okay. But when you say parent differently, this may not be the natural thing that you do that works for your children, you

Kirk Martin 30:57
know, your words that you just use when so it's the same words we use. So kids child's really upset, I'll often walk in the room. Common example was when our son would be yelling at my wife as mom. And I would come and say, Hey, until you're frustrated, listen, when you're ready. If you want to come in the living room, and build with Legos love to build with a spaceship with you, hey, when you're ready, if you want to come outside and play, catch love to help you with whatever you're struggling with. So it was that it was just what you said when you are ready. It's giving them control of something. There's movement. We teach motion changes e motion, I like movement for upset neurodivergent kids, I don't like talking too much. I think makes them like you said more upset. It's hard to process language when you're upset. But saying, Hey, you want to grab the football? I'll meet you outside. Okay, I can do that. I can sit and build with Legos. Just saying hey, you need to calm down right now, young man. Well, how I don't know how to calm down. Because apparently you don't either, because you're yelling at me. Right? That's what my son said to me once he was like, You're yelling at me to calm down Dad? Do you not see the irony in that and I was like, you little jerk. You're not supposed to talk to me like that. But it was actually is absolutely true. So I started using movement, because now we moved out of that place where we were right that typical, like parent child face off. I'm gonna make you calm down now. Now it was, hey, when you're ready, gives them some ownership or control. The other thing I do sometimes is give them a job. Oh, you know what? I just remembered, we're having spaghetti, could you go to the pantry and get the spaghetti sauce, could you get that? The top off that jar? Why just so instead of getting them to just calm down, I gave them a job to do that they're in control of and they can be successful at doing. And the very process of, I get up, I go the pantry. And now I'm helping do something that alone is calming. And now I get to say, oh man, you're so strong, I really appreciate that. And now the child's more calm. And I didn't try to calm him down, so to speak. Right.

Holly Moses 33:10
And I think when it's not direct and really giving that space, and really again, knowing your kid because giving them a you know task in that moment, when they're really upset, that jar might go fly, right? So it really depends and you're checking in kind of a you know your kid better than anyone is where are they in this moment. And if they're able to do that task that they you know, maybe a preferred one that they like, like you said, you could turn around and say, you know, you're really strong. That's, that's awesome. So, you know, and I love that. And again, maybe the rule broke you thought was gonna be there, you know, and that was what was gonna happen in your parenting journey, here is a different way of doing it. And I feel like not that things have been easy, but I feel like I am a much better parent now that I can still stand back and realize, like, all the different ways things can happen. And maybe we can take a hard look and and the way we were parented, maybe that wasn't the best way for us.

Kirk Martin 34:18
Yeah, you have to challenge all of those things.

Holly Moses 34:23
So it's interesting that you just said challenge all those things. Because number four is your kid will change you

Kirk Martin 34:31
will well it's the kids will change you there's two different ways one, this one is because they're different than you. Right. And so that's one of the hard parts parents, like especially, you know, if you're from my wife, it was really hard for this reason. My wife is a compliant, rule follower. She was raised. Just do what people tell you to do. And so our son comes along, and he's not like that. He's going to question everything. And so it's like, well, why can't you just be like me? Right, why. And so the beautiful part of these kids is that they will cause you to grow up and mature. And it's not just like one of those nice things to say, Oh, they're, they're a blessing, they're a gift. Not in that way. In reality they are, because they will push every button you have. And the real issue isn't that they're good at pushing buttons, it's that you and I have so many buttons to push. And so they will bring out all holla you know this, because you're getting a little bit older, like, like, I'm much older, new. But you know, we're just immature, broken people. And so they will find all those areas. Like for me, it was my dad was career military. So it was fear and intimidation, yell and scream. And I did that with my son when he was little, they don't back down, they're not moved by it. And so it's like, Wait, this is all I know, this is my, this is my tool, my toolbox. And so my son would bring out all these things in me. And then now it was out in the open, and it was either change and fix a kid or change myself. And so in all honesty, my son especially, has caused me to become an entirely different person than I was before I had him. And I am truly grateful for that. Now, some people, some people listening, you have harder situations, right? You have kids with attachment disorders, you have some really intense things. And so I don't want to sugarcoat it like, oh, well, they're just going to make us into different people because it's hard. But if you can embrace their differences and say, what, what here's one thing this week is, what's one trigger, that they're bringing out you that you didn't realize you had, because a lot of us before we had kids were like, I'll never yell at my kids. That doesn't last very long. So just work compassionately on yourself, knowing that you're breaking generational patterns. And if you can embrace that, it's a really cool thing. No,

Holly Moses 37:07
I love that you said this. And definitely a quote here is when you say, you know, they push your buttons, looking at the buttons, and nobody talks about that. Right? It's, it's, well, you and I do but it's looking at those things like, why are those buttons for you? Like what's happening there for you, instead of let's fix and change that kid? Because like you said, they may be pressing those buttons to sort of like, oh, okay, maybe I didn't realize that was there? Or maybe those are things that I need to work through, you know, what's happening in this interaction? Because there are two people. And we're usually only shining the light on the kid. How do I get them to stop pressing my buttons? Well, where did those buttons come from? And what's happening for you? And what do you need, as the parent to figure out? Why are those such big buttons?

Kirk Martin 38:02
What happened to your raised right, like, for me, my dad was career military. So if you're not five minutes early, you're 10 minutes late, right? Always on time? Well, you have a nerd divergent kid, they don't move according to the way everybody else does. So my natural response, Casey, Casey, Casey, get moving. Now, if you don't get in the car, you're going to lose everything you own. And then that that tone of voice came out. And you know, that's how they the more you push them, the more they resist, the more you try to get them to go more quickly, the slower they go. And so what I finally went internally not to blame yourself or beat yourself up, it was my childhood expectation was always you gotta be on time, gotta go quickly got to move quickly. And so I was a type A freak before Casey came along. And so what I learned then was, Oh, if I do the opposite of what I'm doing now, because because here's the cool thing. My anxiety pauses the exact opposite response that I want. The more that I lecture, the more I kids don't listen, the more I rush them, the slower they go. So what if I did the opposite of what I normally do, and see how that works. So I started actually slowing things down. And I would sit on my son's bed in the morning and wake them up to a compliment to talking about something he was interested in. And I found when I connected with him, I got a lot more cooperation. And so by slowing myself down, two things happened. One is I became a much more pleasant human being, and not always anxious and rush. And two, it just worked better. And so it not only changes you, it will actually just help things work better in your home with this child. So there's kind of like two benefits to it's almost like listening to your child. It's almost like that thing of like your child mirrors back to you. Your issues, right? I always thought it was issue issue. And now I realized I have so many buttons to push. So it's cool thing. Yeah,

Holly Moses 40:07
that is so true. I'm so glad we talked about that. Okay, number five, control parent anxiety about your child's future. Okay,

Kirk Martin 40:16
so can I can I, we skipped one, can I just do it really quickly? The one on the list?

Holly Moses 40:25
Oh, yeah, of course, the other one,

Kirk Martin 40:27
it goes with the previous one, your kids will change you because they're so different, or your kids will change you because they're just like you. And so here's what's going to come up and you, as good parents, all those traits that you had as a kid and as a person that have have have caused some pain or made life difficult for you, you see your child repeating those. And because you're a good parent, it's like, oh, I don't want them to struggle with the same thing. And so you're going to try to change them out of a good heart. But now you're robbing your child of learning from the same things you learn from right, like a lot of us are kind of stove touchers in life, and we learn that way. And we're like, oh, I don't want my son or daughter to go through this pain or discomfort. But sometimes you have to let them do that. And it's because and it's hard because you see yourself in your child. And I think just recognizing that that's what's triggering, you can be really helpful. For me, it ultimately helped because I can say case, I've always struggled in that same area as well. Here's what life has taught me. So if you want to avoid some of the unpleasant things that happen, then try doing it differently. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that one in there for those of you who basically have a mini me at home, and you will want to change them so much change together. Like my, one of the beautiful things with our son is that I changed right in front of him. He watched me go from this type a freak, who just yelled and screamed and couldn't control himself to being in control of myself. And he watched it happen. Like that was his greatest lecture was I watched my dad kind of be humbled by life, and by his four year old son, and change. So anyway, I just wanted to throw that out. No,

Holly Moses 42:20
and I'm so glad that you did. I think that's really important. Okay, so we're talking about that future. And we talked a little bit about this already, we touched on it.

Kirk Martin 42:32
Okay, so controlling your anxiety about their future. I'll just do a bluntly because I know I've rambled a little bit, you are going to have anxiety about your child's future, you're going to look at what they're doing now and project into the future and assume that that 12 year old boy who sits in a hoodie sweatshirt, the same hoodie for 18, straight days playing video games, is going to be that same kid, when they're 27. And inside, you're thinking who's going to marry this child who would possibly hire this child? And what and you do this, we do the same for the four year old that can't sit still in circle time? And who's walking around the preschool class? She can't follow directions. How is she ever going to succeed in life? And we take all of this on and project it out. And what I want you to know is they change, they change over time. Like you're different than you were when you were eight. I hope you're different for men do this a lot. Because men have this like hero complex of like, look at me, I'm a 40 year old man, I'm so disciplined and I work so hard. And I'm like you were a dopey nine year old also. Right? You were you were a 13 year old that was clueless. And if you're a man, you're still pretty clueless at 40. Because we don't grow up till we're about 45. So, but just be aware that that's your anxiety. And here's the one thing I would watch out for the anxiety of projecting to the future will cause you to begin lecturing your child over and over again, you're going to go to that kid in a hoodie sweatshirt and say, You know what, if you would just apply yourself you'd be capable of so much more. And and you need to do this and you're doing this wrong. Beware of picking out all the negatives. If I had one homework assignment for you this week for parents that would be for one week, observe a recognize and affirm the qualities that they already have. And the traits the things are already doing well without saying but just notice, just notice the things they're already doing well, that will build their confidence that is very motivating. But anyway, I'll leave it there, but it's really important. No,

Holly Moses 44:42
that's a game changer. And so I think when we let ourselves like again, gently notice even the thoughts that come in, right like what if they What if they're gonna be in my basement for the rest of their lives and who's gonna take care of them when I'm not here? I mean, all those things are fears that are Breathing is sharing with us because we care so much, right? It's that fear is gonna come up. And so when it comes up, like you said, being able to notice it, and be gentle and not beat ourselves down with it, and certainly not say it, because I've had kids in my office plenty of times who say, my parents say, I'm never going to be able to live on my own, and all these things. And they're I mean, they're, they're young. And they're carrying the weight of this. And that's what they're telling themselves. Yeah, I probably won't. Right. And that's pretty sad, right? And I don't think any parent needs to, I think it comes out of fear. And because they love their kids so much, they want them to have a full life for them, or their idea of a full life. Right. So you know, this is really important that again, we just gently notice. And so I think that homework is right on.

Kirk Martin 45:57
I think I'll help parents with this one, just so you know. So most of your kids are not going to clean up their room, their bathrooms is going to be disgusting. I just is. And so our son was like that. And you have that natural anxiety of like, are they going to grow up and beyond the borders? Are they going to have, right all these different things? Who's going to bear our son lives now? About seven minutes from us? I was at his house last night. Our son was a complete, it was awful when he was a kid. We walk in his house last night. Because he made he made he made me a steak dinner because he's a good son. You know, you have to do at my son's house, you have to take off your shoes when you walk in his house. So you don't trap dirt in there. His house is perfectly spotless. Why? Because he's a grown adult because he owns his house. And because he's engaged. And he doesn't want his fiancee to think he's a slob. So they change. And I would encourage you watch your words, there was a time. You know, it's just recognizing that your own anxiety. And one time I remember apologizing to Casey, because he came downstairs. I was making breakfast and I got on him as you get did you get your homework done? Because you did it. And I realized it was my anxiety. And I said hey case, I apologize. That was my own anxiety, because I'm behind on my work. And I just I just projected that onto you. So not your issue. So look in those things. When I apologize. It's just a statement of truth. It's not a groveling thing. I've been such a horrible parent. Now it's just acknowledging knows my own anxiety. And I apologize, because sometimes, sometimes I focus on the negative too much. And I apologize for that. Because I do see your future, and you have a great future. Because I've seen it when you when you play video games, here's what I see. You're confident, you're engaged. You're a leader, you're really strategic, you're persistent, because you don't do anything else around the house until you get to the next level, right? You don't eat or sleep or do your schoolwork or pee or do anything. You're, I'm kind of kidding there, but I'm not. And so I'm not encouraging kids to play video games. But this is really important. I guarantee you in different areas of life, like playing video games, doing things for other people, our kids tend not to be very good for us. But other people, our kids are amazing. And so you begin to put that together and say, I've seen these qualities inside of you, you have every quality necessary for success in life. And I've seen it one day, you're gonna get a vision for your life, and you're gonna put all this together, you're gonna kill it in the real world. And then you give them a fist bump, and you walk away and you drink. I'm kidding. But you're gonna feel like it because you don't see it right now. And I want you to look I want I encourage you call out those skills when you see them, hey, you were down to Johnson's house the other day, they just they sent me a text and said, you're amazing and that you were so helpful. Well, that's awesome. Because one day you're going to be in the real world helping other people, you're already good at that at age 12. You just don't pick up your room, you don't do your homework, don't say these things. You're going to see all these things at home that they don't do. Find the areas where they do Excel and put your energy into that.

Holly Moses 49:18
I like that because I think especially with their interests, you know, really putting a lot of energy there. I think that's that's so lovely. Yes. Okay. Number six, don't sacrifice your child on the altar of your own convenience, or to make others more comfortable.

Kirk Martin 49:40
You just gonna have to get a tough skin right? You're just gonna have to because people are going to be uncomfortable with your child. They're going to judge you. And forgive me for this. This is not hard, but you kind of have to develop a little FQ attitude, right? You don't have to tell people that but inside Some of you don't like that. I'm strong willed. So I'm like fu right your kids are Reverend Don't tell me that. They're that can be very therapeutic actually to have that a little bit of that. Or if you're a nicer person, you just say like, they just don't know what they're talking about. Right? They just that they mean, well, those people that are judging me meanwhile, but this is my home, I get to make the choices for what's best for my child. And I'm very resolute in that. And so do things look different in my home? Absolutely. Am I going to do things that are counterculture and against you? Right? You're gonna have to do it at church, for those of you in church synagogue in your faith, these kids, like Casey wouldn't go to children's church because he wanted to come into the adult service, because he was an adult like, kid, and then he could argue with the pastor over theological things, because that's what kids do, too. So they're going to make you uncomfortable. They're going to embarrass you at times. And that's okay. Because again, that's your own immaturity of being embarrassed and caring too much what other people think. But I just encourage you this know you know your kid better than anybody else in the world. You know your child better than I do better than Holly does better than any teacher, any pastor, anybody. You do what's best for you and your family? do weird things who like I love getting kids out of bed? Little kids with a treasure hunt? Hey, I hate your food, your breakfast? Outside? Bet you can't find it. And who cares if your neighbors are like, Why is your son out in his pajamas every morning in the snow looking for his food? Because he loves doing that? And because we love him being outside. So we can actually enjoy some peace and quiet ins. I'm kidding.

Holly Moses 51:48
But yeah, we're not making kids go in the snow look for them, kid.

Kirk Martin 51:53
There's no but here's here's the tool example is our kids do like to problem solve. So doing a treasure hunt. You're in Raleigh. It's nice weather there most of the year. So springtime, you wake your child up or do a treasure hunt in the basement and hide their food. Is that different than how other people do it have perfect breakfast of everybody sitting around together? Like howling that thing even have like, all those shows of like the family who sits around the dinner table. Let's share all the good things that happened today. And you're like, I'm just trying to get my kid one to eat something other than mac and cheese tonight. I'm trying to get through dinner without my husband yelling at the kids, let alone talking about all the wonderful things that happen. Your life is going to look different. And I want you to be able to embrace that and say, Yeah, we ate mac and cheese for six straight nights. You know why? Because it worked. And nobody's gonna die from that we ate awful when we were kids. Don't be don't try to do life like everybody else is doing it. Your kids are going to sleep differently. You're going to put them in a sleeping bag and put them in like in a closet because they like confined spaces. And other people are going to be like your family is so weird. And you're going to be like, well, your family so boring. Or you have sorry, God knew you couldn't handle anything other than compliant little people pleasers. So enjoy your perfect little life. I know that sounds a little defensive. Oh,

Holly Moses 53:29
My face hurts from smiling. That's hilarious to have a little humor

Kirk Martin 53:32
with it. And so I'm not a bad mom. If I just make a vat of mac and cheese and 1800 chicken nuggets on Sunday night for the week. No, you're good mom because that's what your child eats right now. And one day, though, eat healthy food down the road. Our son was a horrible eater. Like when I do phone consultations, and people are like, we're concerned by a daughter only eight each eight different things. I'm like eight. That's amazing. Our child a three, like what are you complaining about? When you live in this world? It's like, Wait, so your son didn't get suspended? I think that's a good semester. Right? Can I just throw out one more thing because I think it's helpful. Think for perspective, what your kids didn't do wrong in that situation. Like we used to get calls like your your son pushed someone else in the line at the cafeteria and I'm like, okay, so he was hungry and he has initiative. I liked that about my son. Call me when he call me when he throws someone down and stomp some or put scissors in the back of a kid's back. Right like I know that's a little extreme. But it's like, think of all the things they didn't do. And unlike for my son just butting in line. I would give him a gold star for the day. Thank you Casey for not pushing someone down. You just manipulated someone to get in front of them. That was a good day for him. And so there are times where you have to say, Okay, so my son did that, or daughter did that. But they didn't do X, Y, or Z. And that would have been way worse. I know that sounds a little bit. I don't know what that sounds like. But I think that's just reality for our kids. Is.

Holly Moses 55:21
Yeah, and I think the idea of to make other people comfortable or selves, like being able to kind of look at those buttons to, because that's another button, I think, for parents and it certainly for me when I would be called into the school or, or whatever that is, and then, you know, they're kind of questioning your parenting. Right? My mom said the other day, well, what Has he eaten? What fresh vegetables and fruits did he eat today? None. No. I'm just telling you none. And I'm not a bad parent. That's all I just said. None. And I'm not a bad parent. That was my comment.

Kirk Martin 56:01
Mom, you know, what's even more unhealthy? is trying to control and judge other people.

Holly Moses 56:08
I love you mom, though. Like, yeah,

Kirk Martin 56:10
I love your mom, too. Yeah, my

Holly Moses 56:12
mom's it. But I mean, it's, it's we get it from everywhere. It is so true. Yeah. Okay, number seven, define your value is

Kirk Martin 56:20
get determine what's important to you. And I would write it down. So for schooling, here's what we came up with was, we want to raise a child who is curious and loves to learn, period. And then everything had to run through the funnel of, okay, is this promoting curiosity and loving to learn? Or doing endless worksheets? doing that? No. So we cut some of those arbitrary things out what is important, what are the qualities important to you as a family, and I would encourage you, you know, make this is a really useful exercise, especially to do with your spouse, because some of you have a spouse. And I'm just going to make an aside pick on men, because I'm a man. And a lot of times, moms are the ones watching these podcasts, and you're the ones who read all the books, and the husband, men just don't read the books, okay? They just don't, well, he's got to, he's got to learn those, he's got to toe the line in school. So get out a piece of paper, and write I put a little line down the middle, and say, on the left side, here are all the qualities necessary for success in school, or to be a good kid. And then on the right side, say, what are all the qualities necessary to be successful in life as an adult? And what you'll find is, they don't always match up, and your kids will probably have deficits so to speak, in the school column, in the kid column, but in the real life column, oh, man, they're gonna kill it. Right, that ability to question things, critical thinking skills, a lot of them are old souls, right? A lot of them are persuasive, influential, now we call it we'll call it manipulative. But the flip side of manipulative is they understand human nature, they see patterns and things that seem patterns thing, by the way, is phenomenal for life success, our kids are just great. Adults. So so what that helps you do is keep yourself focused on I'm not raising a kid. And I'm not raising a kid to be successful as a kid. I'm raising this human, to be emotionally healthy to be successful in the real world. And so one of the key things that I I try to tell parents is stop trying to make your kid be good as a kid, or to be good at being good in the kid world. So many of our kids, they kill it in the real world. They're awesome for other adults, and that's what you're raising them for. So even with chores, like Casey or some, he was never good at chores, he didn't want to do stupid chores. So we gave him adult type jobs to do. And we counted those as chores. But when we work with families whose kids change the oil, but they won't take the trash out, because if it's called a chore, they won't do it. But our son would have got a job from the age of 12. He would go down the street to this older couples house, and he would help them around their house. Why? Because they weren't nagging parents like we were. And so we said, that's what we're raising him to do to be a good conscientious human being who does nice things for other people. And he does he just doesn't do anything for us. Right and, and I think that's reality. But if you have this list on the sheet of paper, you can say, oh, yeah, that's a great quality for life success. And then I focus on those more than the ability to sit still in school all day long and memorize information for tests that You're never going to use again. Well, what do I focus on? Well, we just chose to focus on the other things and for encouragement, our son was not good as a kid. He just wasn't. He is 30. Now, in the real world, that kid absolutely crushes it. He's good at all. All those things that irritated us about him when he was a kid, are the very qualities that make him successful as an adult, and your kids are the same way.

Holly Moses 1:00:31
Yeah, I tell you, a lot of times the kids that I see like, because it can be so persuasive, and it's a skill.

Kirk Martin 1:00:41
It's great salesperson, you make a lot of money selling stuff, right? Like all those things. Why can't you take no for an answer? And it's like, switch that around to Yeah, that's annoying. I get it. But what a great quality, to have that persistence. And to understand, look, many of your kids make it like at the holidays, when you get together, they make inappropriate jokes about relatives. And we're like, that's inappropriate. Stop it. But inside, you're kind of laughing, because they're spot on? Well, that's because they see patterns. And they get human nature, because they're often look a couple of things. One, there tend to be very good observers, the quieter ones deeper thinkers are observers. And plus, these kids are accustomed to feeling different and hurt. And so they feel things deeply. And so their ability to mock people, and especially your relatives is because they have great insight into human nature. Well, that's the reason you're a great therapist, it's not just your training, it's because Holly, you get people. And so how are you a good salesperson, because you understand what motivates people, you're a good marketer, because of that, like, there's, if you can step back, your kids have all these amazing talents. They just don't get grades for seeing patterns. They don't get. That's why they swipe your kids don't want to show their math homework sometimes or their math work. Well, I looked at the problem, and I saw the pattern, and I knew the answer instantly. Well, you need to show your work done. I just showed you my work by getting the answer, right, right like that. So you're gonna argue with them for like 18 years over that. But anyway, I, your kids are going to be your kids are going to do well in life, just pull those qualities out. And let them know this thing of sitting still all day, you won't have to do that after you're like 17, it's going to be okay.

Holly Moses 1:02:37
Number eight, spend your energy supporting their passions. That's

Kirk Martin 1:02:42
kind of what we're just talking about. So I'll do this one quickly. The trap we fall into is everybody points out the negatives. And we think we have to fix everything that's supposedly wrong with our kids. So now they're going to Kumon to learn math, and they're going to this and they're going to that, and their whole life becomes about trying to fix what's wrong with them. And you have to be judicious about that, because there are some things that they need help with, and they need to learn. And they may need to see a therapist about or go to an occupational therapist. But if you spend 80% of your energy trying to fix what's wrong, well, guess what, you don't have time for cultivating their natural gifts, talents and passions. I'd rather switch it around and look in a very practical way. Our son we knew from an early age was not going to be a scientist, he was not very good at math. I just knew that. And so I didn't put all my energy and well, I've got to make you good at math. Now I just want you to be proficient enough. And I taught him how to budget Casey, if you at age 30. If you ask him multiplication tables, which I occasionally do when we're hiking, because I like to mess with them a little bit. He can't do them. He's not good at it. But if you ask them how to invest, and you ask him his budget for the month, he can do the practical things. So we didn't spend a lot of time teaching that we did spend time teaching them how to communicate, both in writing and verbally, because you really do need that. But most of our time with him spent cultivating What are you good at doing, let's give you opportunities to shine. Rather than just watch that thing of trying to fix everything that's wrong. Some things and this would be the value of seeing a therapist like Holly would be Hollywood be able to say hey, those things. You don't have to fix that. We don't even have to work on that. These things. Yeah, I'd like to give them some tools in this area. But I read I'd rather you spend much more time letting your kids build robots and build with Legos and play than just endlessly fixing them.

Holly Moses 1:04:47
I love that so much. Oh my goodness. So you know, not long ago. There is a person that I support a younger kid who's said someday I'm gonna be governor. And I've no doubt you will be by the way, someday I will be governor, and everyone's gonna have to be nice to people like me. And I was like, Cool. Yeah. Oh my goodness, this love him. And so the thing is to it's, there's so much beautiful, passionate, amazing things about our kids, our clients, our students, but when we gauge their worth, based on things like doing the math quickly, at the restaurant, right? It's not, that doesn't even make sense, right? I mean, there is no reason to do that, except to have them feel bad. Like that doesn't even make sense. You know, you can't base my future on, did the drawer meet up for every step that day? Is the answer is going to be no. I'm just real. I'm just keeping it real. I can't believe it in front of me. But the thing is, it's like, you know, when we say Oh, my goodness, that's amazing. So right now, my youngest, he is working on getting more subscribers on his youtube channel so he can get ads and things like that. So somebody else might say, Well, what else? Is he? Is he doing this as you do in his home? Or is he doing? Well, but if this is his passion, and his area of interest, I want to support that. So he's interested in snakes. So we go and look for snakes. And I asked this local snake person who she's amazing. And she spent two hours with us talking to us about snakes, right? I mean, there's so many things that we can do to support their interest. And to be able to put our energy and focus into that not only helps them in their mental health also shows them how many options there could be to do something you love. We don't want to set them up to do work. They hate every day when they go in there. You know, we want to have them explore those passions and have us support that.

Kirk Martin 1:07:20
Absolutely.

Holly Moses 1:07:24
That's so good. Herc, thank you so much. This has been such a great conversation. This happened. This was awesome. Thank you. It was so fun. I hope you come back and see me too. Well,

Kirk Martin 1:07:37
let's do it again. Let's do it back to school time.

Holly Moses 1:07:40
That's the time to do it.

Kirk Martin 1:07:42
Let's do it. August. I'll see you in August.

Holly Moses 1:07:44
I love it. We'll do it. So tell our watchers and listeners how they can find out more about you. You

Kirk Martin 1:07:51
know what the calm parenting podcast if you Our website is celebrate calm.com. But if you just look up the calm parenting podcast, it's on all the different platforms. And I think we've got 360 episodes. So every topic possible. Just listen and then on there as our email and as you listen, if you have questions, email, if you would tell me that you were a fan or follower of holly, because then that makes it a little bit more personal for us. And I'll answer your questions ahead of other people. Because I like Cali. She's awesome. Oh,

Holly Moses 1:08:24
I appreciate that. I will make sure to have those links in the show notes as well. So kind of pop down there and get right to your awesome content. And what

Kirk Martin 1:08:34
else we're doing Holly I'm an old guy doing videos on Instagram, my son, like dragged me in. He's like, Dad, you have to keep up with the young parents. So for the young so I started doing these videos very awkwardly. And for some reason people like it on Instagram. So we're pretty active there answering questions and interacting. Just being nice to me on Instagram because it's filled with nasty people too.

Holly Moses 1:09:00
Well, thank you for saying that because I'm right there with you. I'm like, What's this? What's a real can somebody break this down for me? So I am also trying to learn that so I'm right there with you and everybody. You know, have patience for the kids

Kirk Martin 1:09:13
are highlights where the kids are.

Holly Moses 1:09:17
Okay, girl, take care, and I look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks. Bye bye

Holly Moses 1:09:28
thank you for joining me for this episode. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any important information. Today's episode is brought to you by the free behavior detective guide. If you are a parent, a teacher or a therapist, and you support a child who struggles with challenging behavior, you absolutely want to get a hold of this free guide. So take a look in the show notes and click the link and you'll be on your way to getting the free guide in your Your inbox thanks so much and I look forward to seeing you next time.

Disclaimer 1:10:04
All content provided is protected under applicable copyright, patent trademark and other proprietary rights all content is provided for informational and educational purposes only. No content is intended to be a substitute for professional medical or psychological diagnosis advice or treatment information provider does not create an agreement for service between Holly blonde Moses, crossbow and clinical group the interviewee held the blog Moses LLC and the recipient consult your physician regarding the applicability of any opinions or recommendations with respect to your symptoms or medical condition or the symptoms or medical condition of your family member children or adults who show signs of dangerous behavior toward themselves or others should be placed immediately under the care of a qualified professional

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