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Holly Moses 0:05
Welcome to the autism ADHD podcast. I am so happy that you joined me today. a moment and ask for your help. Please take just a second and give the podcast a five-star review. This will help me continue the podcast and keep bringing you helpful information. Thanks so much again for taking the time to give that five-star review. Now, let's get started. Welcome, Catherine Muti Driscoll, to the autism ADHD podcast.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 0:40
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Holly Moses 0:44
So Catherine, you work at the Halliwell Todaro ADHD Center, which so many people know about as the director of executive function coaching. Catherine loves to learn and as a result has a variety of degrees and certifications. Currently, she's pursuing her master's in clinical mental health counseling. In June 2024, she'll publish her first book, The ADHD workbook for teen girls understand your nerdy virgin brain, make the most of your strings and build confidence to thrive. And we'll definitely be talking about your book at the end, because it is now available for pre sale. And everyone Catherine is autistic and has been diagnosed with ADHD. So welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 1:32
Thank you so much. I'm really excited.

Holly Moses 1:34
I'm excited to and we are talking about brain shame. And I came upon your blog, which I love. So everyone's gonna have to check that out, too. I'll make sure to have a link below where you talk about brain shame. And the way that you described it, I thought, Oh, my audience has to hear about this. What is brain shame? Brain

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 2:00
shame is the shame that folks with ADHD and autism accrue based on negative experiences with their executive function skills. executive function skills are brain based skills that help us get things done. These include a variety of things you wouldn't expect to be brain based skills, for example, working memory, also the ability to think flexibly in the moment. emotional control is a brain based skill, task initiation, organization, attention and focus, impulse control, timekeeping, planning, prioritization, and self monitoring. So all of those things are brain based skills. What does that mean? That means that some of us are struggling with some and having an easy time with others, but it's not our fault. It's our brain and the fact that for a lot of us with ADHD, and autism, our skills develop at different rates through no fault of our own. However, society doesn't understand that that some of these challenges aren't our fault. And so when we've received negative feedback about them, when we read self help books, and we can't do the strategies, then we can develop a lot of shame around our challenges. So for me, just like a lot of folks with ADHD and autism, I have some skills that I'm great at, like, actually, time management, who knew however, I have some that I'm really bad at like organization, which is an unfortunate one, because I'm a girl, right? And you're expected to be good at that you're expected to have a clean house and easily cook and those things are really hard for me. However, I didn't realize that this was a brain-based thing. I just thought it was an issue with me until I was 37 and got diagnosed. So I developed a lot of shame around it, because so many people would say, Catherine, you're so smart, but why can't you keep your room clean. And that was really tough to hear. And I took it really personally and I tried and I failed. And I just thought it was my fault.

Holly Moses 4:24
And there is so much shame around that. And I appreciate you explaining it and also sharing some personal information about yourself because it really is so hard to understand why you can't do things, especially when someone else expects it from you. And then you of course will get that negative feedback when their expectation isn't met. And then when you were talking about your room, I was just so feeling that because my room is was always a mess, and I was always in trouble. And then we start to tell ourselves, right, like, I'm bad at this, like, something's wrong with me. Did you experience that too, when you said you took it personally, definitely.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 5:12
And for those of you who haven't seen the radical guide for women with ADHD by, sorry, Solden and Michelle Frank, they have a great discussion of how women with ADHD can go from, I have a messy desk, or a messy room, and then they receive negative feedback about that. And then now they've distorted that into I'm a bad person, because brains are likely to distort these small things and make them a generalization about oneself, especially if you don't know why, and you are trying to clean it up. So I think that's what they say that it's very normal for women, and I'm I would guess, men as well who have these challenges to take them in as something wrong with themselves. And that's where we see this brain shame happening.

Holly Moses 6:06
That makes so much sense. And I see that with my clients and my private practice. I'm bad at math, or I can't ever get my room clean, I'm messy, or I'm lazy, like all these things that they take on, when like you said, it's about the brain and the expectation. And when you step back, and you process all the information in a way where it's neuro affirming, it's actually completely different. The person doesn't have to be shamed. But you're right, it's you start to tell yourself that story, and you believe it. And the first thing often that pops in that default thought is I'm bad at and then fill in the blank.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 6:58
Yes, exactly. And I think this is one reason why it was so helpful to me to get diagnosed is that I started to understand these are brain based skills. It's not my fault. And I think, as many writers and experts talk about that shame doesn't actually help. Well, a lot of times if you want to change a situation, in fact, it's a lot easier to make a positive change in some of these areas. I'm not saying I'm ever gonna be Martha Stewart. But I think I often do a better job when I can give myself compassion and understanding. And then from there, it's easier to develop work arounds to advocate for myself. So if my my spouse is like, why are you leaving towels all over the house, my dad also said that too. And no one could ever cure me that I can explain that. I'm really not trying to do that. And I can try to brainstorm some strategies if you really can't live with that.

Holly Moses 8:02
And I personally appreciate that collaboration. And like you said, learning about yourself. Because if you don't learn why your brain works in the way it does, then you will have that shame, because that's what you're going to feel when you're told that you're wrong. Or that you could be doing better or that you're not trying hard enough.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 8:24
Yeah, and I think one of the questions you sent me ahead of time was what makes brain shame more likely. And I hadn't reflected that on that before. But in a lot of ways, I can see how being very sensitive to what others think, which a lot of people with ADHD and autism are, could make you very susceptible. Because you care a lot about what people think and you want to please them, which is true of a lot of folks. So then I think you can be easy when you receive that negative feedback to take it really hard. And to I think a lot of times would my husband would give me feedback about my organization in the house, and he's pretty organized. So it doesn't really completely make sense to him that my brain is really not meaning to take the stuff out of the fridge and put it back or leave the cupboards open. It's I don't know what my brain is doing. But it's not tracking it. But I think I used to just take it really personally like why can't he let it go? Why doesn't he understand me? And now I just realized that that's probably part of his ADHD that he also is continues to be surprised by my behavior that's been the same for 20 years. Yeah.

Holly Moses 9:42
And it's really interesting the way you learn about yourself, and if the other person, you know, whether that's a teacher or parent or whoever is open to learning about the child, this student and then also themselves like why Is it so hard for them to be flexible with their expectation or think about how other the other person might be experiencing the world?

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 10:11
Yeah, and I think I'm very lucky that there's pros and cons to both having ADHD I think in the house, but I am lucky that it makes it a little bit easier because we've gone on this journey together of getting diagnosed recently, and our sons got diagnosed too. So I think we have more of a sense of humor and a curiosity around, Oh, you do things this way. That's interesting. You know, I do things that way.

Holly Moses 10:42
I love that. So not shaming each other, but just saying, my brain works this way. And then the other person listening, and understanding that's the case. And I think that really starts to heal that shame, in some ways, because when we think about shame, it really spirals out over every single environment. Do you remember any situations where you felt shame in school?

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 11:12
I think school was an area that I really excelled in a lot of ways, which is probably one of the reasons why I wasn't diagnosed earlier. However, girls didn't have ADHD or autism back then. Right, the 90s. So I think in a lot of ways, I've feel like my set of executive function strengths actually suits school success pretty well. So I'm lucky with the attention and focus related to school, the goal directed persistence, the time management, I was even able to like, harness my lack of organizational skills, just with my sheer force of will, you know that I wanted to be good at school. And I wanted to be a smart girl and those kinds of things. But I think did face some challenges in some areas of school. And I didn't know why. And I took them really hard, because I cared so much about schools, for example, test taking was really hard for me. And of course, I got no accommodations on that, because nobody knew. So I worked so hard. And I was crushed when I got my AC T scores back because I identified with the kids that were smart, and some of them just had a much easier time knocking everything out of the ballpark, including the test. Or sometimes writing was difficult for me, like just the, the ideas came great, like the ADHD, brain creativity, but then some of the like detail oriented organizational pieces, were really challenging. And I think I really beat myself up for those problems and took them personally. And now it makes a lot of sense. Why those were issues for me.

Holly Moses 13:01
Thank you for telling us about that. That's interesting. I don't know how you feel about this. But for me, I wanted to be worthy. I wanted to be accepted. And I didn't have a lot of control over those things that I got in trouble over like the room keeping that organized and all these other things. So I would work so hard, and the social things were hard. So I work so hard at school, right? Like you said to be the smart girl or somehow get the praise of someone for something I thought the really the only way I was able to do that was to excel at school. But like you said, even when you are doing that there's that shame of if it's not high enough, right? Maybe that a isn't high enough for the AC t score is showing that maybe you're feeling like you're not as smart as you thought you were or you're afraid that other people might think you're not. Yeah, I

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 14:05
think what you said I really relate to that. And I think in some ways, it makes this kind of sense that some neurodivergent kids who felt like they related to school or somehow the school setup was really supportive, that we would dig in on it because in a lot of ways, like it's pretty structured. You get that feedback for your work and easy way like your grade. But for me, I think the social I didn't understand like what would get me an A so to speak, right? Or I didn't at home. Luckily I was an only child. So a lot of my challenges didn't become big issues. I think my parents probably just let it go at a certain point when sadly she's good at school and she has one friend I think they were like she's okay But I think in a lot of ways, even today, in my master's program, I can tell I like much better how you get like a grade, and it's very structured and you know what to do. versus writing this, the book that's coming out, was a lot more unstructured and challenging and brought up a lot more of that negative self talk, because it's a lot less clear what it means to do it. Well, in some ways.

Holly Moses 15:30
Do you remember, I brought up personally this social part of all this? Do you recall for you? If you experience any brain shame around social interactions with your peers?

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 15:45
Yeah, definitely, definitely I did. I think in a lot of ways, I felt a lot of pressure to try and have larger social battery. And I think some of it, I couldn't really put my finger on what I was doing wrong, and a lot of ways, which I guess speaks to why I probably got a diagnosis of autism that a lot of the social dynamics didn't make sense. All I knew is that girls who weren't like me, who were popular and pretty and gregarious. And at the time, I think I thought it had to do with being thin. But then when I became thin, I was like, No, I think it's a personality thing, after all, but I think whatever they had that I felt like I didn't, and that seemed to be so well received. I did feel down on myself for and it wasn't like school where you could do X, Y, and Z and do better. I really was flabbergasted about the whole thing. I kept trying and trying to pretend like I didn't notice that I wasn't that I felt different. Because there was no option of being different, right? You had to just keep trying to seem like everybody else.

Holly Moses 17:06
And I can see how brain shame could really be related to masking and a lot of ways.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 17:14
Yeah, I think that's true. And I think in a lot of ways, I've found my people that I could be more myself around, like I mentioned, my one best friend, I could oftentimes retreat to hanging out with her when the larger social groups were more difficult. And But even she, I think sometimes would say, Catherine, you're really weird and larger group. So you're you talk to me, but then we go in the group, or sometimes you exit the social situation quite abruptly. And I guess that feedback didn't really make sense to me. But it did hurt because I wanted that social capital of being more having an easier time moving in and out of social situations.

Holly Moses 18:05
So when we're talking about brain shame, it really does touch every part of your life. It touches your academic life, your social life, your home life. So how would you describe? I know we talked a little bit about this already, but how brain shame impacts you mentally?

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 18:32
Mentally, like how you feel about yourself or that kind of thing? Yeah, I think one thing that's challenging about brain shame, and I think it's a kind of a new idea that hopefully will become more fleshed out over time. But it strikes me that some of the things like having social challenges, which is a more common setting to see girls struggle, that people wouldn't associate that as much with brain issues. Or also like in the home, a lot of girls and women can struggle more at home with their relationships than they do at school. And I think that's another area that we wouldn't necessarily identify as brain chain, but I think it is, for example, I have a hard time with thinking on my feet strategizing in the moment, and that's, I think, related to a lack of flexibility, and also difficulty with planning and prioritization in real time, that makes parenting pretty hard. So I wouldn't recognize those moments when I feel like I botched something as a parent as being brain shame. But I think it probably is.

Holly Moses 19:54
It's interesting that you say this because I think a lot of the people whether or you're listening because you're a parent, or you're listening, because you're a therapist specializing in neurodivergent kids and teens or you're an educator, it impacts everything throughout your life. So, no matter what anyone, I think listening is going to identify with some kind of brain shame. And I think it's so interesting that you had just brought up about your own parenting because there is a lot of shame behind that. Even I experienced it just yesterday with my own mom, she was telling me, you should just tell him set a boundary and tell him that he's going to come to the table and eat with you. And that's it. And I think a lot of us who are neurodivergent, and also have neurodivergent kids, we hear a lot from different people that are neurotypical about the way that we should do things, or they have their own expectations, even when we're adults. But when they don't understand our wiring, or our kids wiring, there can definitely be shamed there.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 21:14
Yeah, I do. I do think there's a lot of judgment. Certainly, a lot of people have been confused by my difficulty with being that authoritarian person being a disciplinarian. And I think in some ways, I think it is difficult for my brain to do that in the moment and be assertive, right. But also, I I've reflected on this recently, I'm sure you've read about rejection sensitivity, dysphoria, right. And so I think I'm really sensitive. And then a lot of us are, if we have any sort of issues with authority or demand avoidance, we don't like being told what to do. And so I think somehow, paired with some of my executive function, makeup, I think that makes it really hard for me to tell others what to do. And maybe also, because I'm an only child, I never was the big sister who like was bossy. So it just doesn't feel like me at all to to do that. But a lot of people think I'm, like a failed adult for not being able to really embody that. Yeah.

Holly Moses 22:33
And I think you're right about using that terminology, too. It really does feel that way, like you have, like you're a fail, you're failing socially, or you're failing academically, or you're failing, keeping your room clean, and you're failing paradise, oh, is all the shame, and it just feels like 1000 pounds, sometimes. Now, I don't know if this is the case for you. I know you said earlier, it's been helpful to have the diagnosis. And it's been better, since I've certainly felt like, Hey, I'm gonna give myself permission to accept this isn't where my strength is. And I'm going to be okay with that. And I know I have strengths in these other areas. And so I'm not going to take that shame on. And of course, it's not that easy. And I work on it every day, right? Like all of a sudden the light bulb came on, it's not like that. It's a daily practice. So let's talk a little bit about some support strategies.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 23:38
Yeah, I do think that learning about your brain and understanding what these executive functions looks like, can really help and then starting to look across the the settings where you're using the executive functions, and where are your strengths and challenges may all be coming up. And I think also helps with that developing that awareness of what you really should have control over and not because obviously, if it's our brain, and it has a challenge, we can't necessarily just exert willpower and be different. So that's really helpful to know. I think the second another piece that really helps is meeting other people who have similar issues. I think, through supporting my kids with their diagnoses and meeting other parents often have challenges, meeting cultural norms of parenting as well. So that's really nice to have that support where you say, oh, it's not just me who has trouble getting my kid to come to the table for this special dinner, which my folks and other generations would expect that would be a marker of good parenting. So I think that really helps just that. I'm ability to see that I'm not the only one. And others also have kids that it doesn't make sense to force them to do things in that way or, or force yourself to make them do things. I do. I listened to little to the low demand podcast yesterday. And I thought that was really interesting how that conversation was talking about how so much of good parenting that people expect is getting your kids to do stuff. But of course, that's really hard for your nerd divergent kids and as a neurodivergent. Parent, to be forcing that.

Holly Moses 25:39
Yeah, I think so it's a pressure on all of us. Right, a pressure on the parents pressure on the child. And that that episode with Amanda diekman, she's great. I think those are really good ideas as far as those support strategies, and the more we are educated about ourselves. And of course, the person we're interacting with needs to also be open to understanding how we are and that our approach may not be the same as expected from other parents. Or, again, maybe the child needs something in a different way. And then hopefully, we'll get some accommodations in there, because a lot of times school isn't made for the way that their brain works. My 14 year old room, he's neurodivergent. I don't get mad at him, because I am very similar in that. And I might, my relationship with him is more important than a messy room, even though I'm pretty sure there are a few things growing in there. So I do try to make sure that there's no new kinds of species growing in there. But I don't know it's not a priority for me.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 26:50
Yeah. And I think Leslie Todaro, who is one of the founders of Hollowell Todaro here in Seattle, she she does advocate for not really trying to get your ADHD kids to do chores, just because it's so hard on the relationship. And a lot of times those things are really hard for our kids. I think also growing up when we did, it's really hard to sometimes be okay with it, right? Sometimes we are like, ah, but I think maybe just also knowing that's the experience for those of us who grew up in the previous generation and just came about our diagnoses. Now we have kids that it's going to be busy in our brains, right, we're gonna have one thought that's related to this kid should really be able to clean their room, and then the next side is gonna be like, no, wait, that's pretty darn hard for him. And is it worth it to is it if I have to pick my battles? Is this really the most important thing?

Holly Moses 27:50
It is it is a struggle and I love that. Increasing that self awareness. So you can give yourself a little bit of room because you we do feel pulled in different directions. My son taking out the garbage is definitely not his thing. But last night, even though it wasn't that laid out all the parents it wasn't completely dark. So let me just say, In my defense, he wanted to clean out the gutter and the front of the house. I'm like, let's do it.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 28:20
Yeah, I'm just when they want to do it, go. Don't be like, we should clean my room. And I'm like, okay. All right. I need to find this paper. Let's organize my papers. Great. Sounds good.

Holly Moses 28:34
Yeah, cuz it could definitely be a fight over something that doesn't really need to be a fight because I feel pressure because that's supposed to be a kid job. Right? So this, that idea is coming from another place. It's not necessarily me. It wasn't at the time when I grew up. So lots of good conversation here. I appreciate it. So I wanted to talk before we get off about this book that you have coming out.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 29:02
Yeah, it's the ADHD workbook for Teen Girls. And I just got it in the mail. So there it is. Oh, that's

Holly Moses 29:13
so cool. I can't wait to get it.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 29:17
Yep, so it's through new Harbinger. They're the self help book publisher, and they didn't have a ADHD workbook for Teen Girls. So they thought it was definitely a need out there. Good

Holly Moses 29:29
for that publisher. Because there's a gap there as we know.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 29:35
And there's a lot about executive function in their teen girls can learn all about their personal strengths and weaknesses around these brain skills. And there's a lot of also practicing identifying cognitive distortions or if you're making the leap from I have this messy desk to I'm a mess as a person. And there there's also just a lot have self compassion for challenges, even when our teachers or parents, they may not completely always get that we're not doing certain behaviors to be frustrating to others. And what a lovely

Holly Moses 30:15
opportunity to learn about themselves. And then now see that I needed that. Great, I needed your book when I was a teenager. Like the one you just wrote, which is so great that you're doing that, and thinking about how that can really help them and their mental health because we know that girls especially they're diagnosed with anxiety and depression first, ADHD and autism later. Right?

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 30:46
That was my case, too. That was your case. Yeah, it

Holly Moses 30:49
was diagnosed with anxiety and depression first, ADHD later. So the more that they learn about themselves earlier, the more that can also help their mental health, which is lovely. And of course, this goes in for boys as well. I see so many boys with brain shame, too, that is so important for them to learn about themselves, and how other people's brains might be telling them something. So I think you're gonna appreciate this. I am a fan of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. I love the idea of saying something my brain is telling me a story. That, right? And like you just said, Oh, my, my desk is messy. On the best. My brain is telling me a story. I'm a mess, because I guess I have this idea that what my desk is supposed to look like according to other people. Yeah,

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 31:42
I think that's really helpful. That's a great tip of just and then you're just distancing yourself from that story, because you're naming it as a story. Yeah.

Holly Moses 31:54
I love that. And when you were talking about not shutting the cabinets on all I can so understand that. I was just like, yep, everything. Yeah. Yeah,

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 32:05
I'm thinking about it. I'm amazed at some people actually do open it, take it out. Close it like, wow, some brains work like that. That's

Holly Moses 32:15
exactly. And so I love the way you're talking about where you chairman, and really educating all of us about it. Because I could say, oh, yeah, I got distracted. My brain told me another story while I was in the middle of opening up the cabinet. And then I did this other thing, which is really what happened instead of I'm so forgetful. I'm so bad at remembering things. It is such a difference for your mental health and the way that you process it. Yeah,

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 32:42
that's great. I like how you applied the that story to that situation to that was nice. I'm

Holly Moses 32:50
so glad. I am honored that I am the first person to interview on you on a podcast. And I hope that you come back and see us again.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 33:01
Great, thank you so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate all your support and enthusiasm and great questions.

Holly Moses 33:08
Thank you and I will make sure to have a link to your services and also your both down in the show notes. Great.

Dr. Catherine Mutti-Driscoll 33:19
Thank you so much.

Holly Moses 33:20
Thanks, you take care. Bye bye.

Holly Moses 33:28
Thank you for joining me for this episode. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any important information. Today's episode is brought to you by the free behavior detective guide. If you are a parent, a teacher or a therapist, and you support a child who struggles with challenging behavior, you absolutely want to get a hold of this free guide. So take a look in the shownotes and click the link and you'll be on your way to getting the free guide in your inbox. Thanks so much and I look forward to seeing you next time.

Speaker 1 34:04
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