Research shows us that differently wired children may be more likely to experience electronics addiction. In this important episode, we will talk about understanding overconsumption and addiction and will provide helpful strategies that you can start using today. 

My guest is Dr. Jay Berk. Dr. Berk is an expert in electronics addiction. He is a psychologist who works with children, adolescents, and adults, and has been in practice for over 25 years. He has written two books including A Parent's Quick Guide to Electronic Addiction available on Amazon. 

xx, Holly - The Mom/Psychologist Who Gets It

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Resources

Dr. Jay Berk's Website

www.hollyblancmoses.com

Transcript

Holly: Welcome Dr. Jay Berk, an expert in video game overconsumption, gaming addiction, and digital addiction.

Jay: Hey Holly, thanks for inviting me.

 Holly: It's so good to speak with you today. And you know this is such a big issue for parents, for professionals, for teachers. It really creates a difficult situation for the child, but also a lot of big and difficult interactions for kids that are differently wired children diagnosed with autism and or ADHD. Okay so please introduce yourself. I know a lot of people already know you, but for those who don't know

Jay: Well, I know me, so we'll see. So my name is Dr. Jay Berk, I'm based in Cleveland, Ohio. I work with kids all over the place. My website is Jay Berkphd.com, J A Y B E R K phd.com. As I said, I'm a psychologist and I work with children, adolescents, and adults, and I've been in practice for over 25 years. And what I've seen is a lot of growing issues with kids with electronics. This has been common and I've written two books now on it, the one that's probably most relevant to our topic today is a parent's quick guide to electronic addiction and it's available on Amazon. But what I'm here today to talk about is give some tips to parents and professionals on what to do. So I think the first thing to start with is the idea of electronic addiction versus overconsumption. I think that might be a good place is that okay to start

 Holly: I think that sounds like a great idea we'll talk about the differences.

Jay: Yeah. So there's a small number of kids and adults that are addicted. And then the world health organization came up with clear criteria about addiction but we're finding is overconsumption and then them stepping into the addiction, but there's a sort of a permeable membrane there that changes. So for looking at where the kids starting to have problems, we're looking at issues with schoolwork, getting up in the middle of the night, losing friends, losing interest in other activities. When you see the addiction sign, you're seeing kids that are totally shut down, won't come out of the room, won't attend school, stealing huge amounts of money. Parents out there be aware your PayPal account is hooked up to the game, even if it's free. 

   So a lot of things that have happened out there recently I had a case where a kid took about $9,000 out of the PayPal account before the mom figured it out. And they do it off microtransactions. And that is small transactions that they want to earn things or get things. So it could be, the kid starts with gaming healthy moves into over-consumption moves to addiction, and you can actually move backward down that continuum too. So gaming itself is not bad or good it's recreational. It's when those kids start stepping into those other areas.

 Holly: So really it's the behavior, the actions that we see that they're taking -such a good idea.

Jay: The extreme of it now, what you'll see is the kids with the addiction basically are having rage fits when you pull the computer from them or electronics from them, their grades are plummeting down and again, their friends are gone. But one of the things that you'll see with them is they're starting to anticipate the next use of the games, sort of like a person with a drug issue.  

  And there's a lot of parallel to the gaming industry to gambling in the way the games are set up near misses. It's like; oh I could have had this, what I want to be like in a game. And there are really two types of gaming out there. So if parents are listening a lot of kids on the spectrum tend to play more of the fantasy types of games or play Minecraft or things like that, where the ADHD kids and those kinds of kids tend to play more of the first-person shooter games because they get the adrenaline rush off of it. The kids on the spectrum get relief from their daily life, which causes them stress. And what they want to do is this fantasy life that actually is much more rewarding to them.

Holly: And that's interesting.  Because, and then a lot of children are also, you know, diagnosed with both autism and ADHD. So you may see even both of those things. I agree when it comes to gaming, there can be some pretty great things about it. It could be a way to connect with friends over a shared interest. It could be, especially now that kids don't have a lot of opportunities to be face-to-face because of COVID-19. So, you know it's that tricky thing where lots of... 

 Jay: Everybody is wearing a mask

Holly: That's right. So, you know, it's, it's hard for a lot of reasons. We want our children to connect with other kids.  And especially if our child only has one or two really big interests and one happens to be gaming a certain game or whatever that makes it even more difficult would you agree?

Jay: Yeah, I would let's do a little bit of information here for parents, which is a huge percent of teenage boys, especially have friends through their games now also we're talking social media, there are people making contact with people all over the world. And a lot of parents are concerned with who is my kid talking to. I have a case right now of a 19-year-old girl with autism who's talking to a guy in Europe that the parent she's convinced as a guy, her age, the parents are convinced isn't. And so there gets to be like, well, they have the same interest as me. And so for a lot of people if I have to go into a room and find somebody who has the same interest that takes a lot of work. If I can hop on the internet and find somebody that's into fans, boom I'm into that person's interest range and it works a lot better. 

  So one of the things is helping kids find groups that they fit into a lot of kids on the spectrum working with them in my practice, they do better walking into an existing group Scouts, church groups, something like that, rather than creating a group that's a lot harder for them. And again, the gaming are they on with their friends, from school kids, they know are they on with friends from all over the world and for a lot of parents to understand that some kids are socializing through their gaming itself.

Holly: Right, and so those chat boxes and live games, I mean, there's a lot of back and forth for sure. And it is hard and it's, you know, we want our kids to interact with others. Absolutely and sometimes it feels like that's their lifeline.

Jay: Yes

Holly:  Especially now.

Jay: But if it's their only lifeline, that's the problem. So things I recommend cause people are always like, don't talk theory talk practical. So let's do that. So are the practical is if you're a parent or professional working with parents out there, the idea is if the family's doing some other things, getting the kids involved in things is important. Be it hobbies, skiing, skied shooting, swimming, whatever you're going to do as a family so that they have other interests. Because what happens is those interests start to dwell. So if I'm a kid and I can be like, wow, I can organize some kids. I can go to the YMCAs, play basketball. I'm going to stop on Madden when two seconds, what are you going to do?  So you gotta help them with the process of setting up those friends, things like that organizing planning. Some kids actually have trouble planning. Some kids aren't sure how to ask. They don't know how to text a lot of kids don't talk to each other anymore. They text with each other And I think that's important too in helping kids with using technology.

   I have a girl that I'm working with right now. Who is in high school all the girls just rallied against her and they're cyberbullying her at school and at home. And again for her, the escape is to go to the internet because that's where there are other people, not from our school, but we've got to help her with her interests. She happens to be a really good athlete, helping her find other kids who are athletes to connect with. So for parents out there think about this, think about pay to play, which is a concept I talked about in conference, which is a minimum amount of time. And then if they do other things, they can build time onto it. And I think that's really important. Don't be in a position where you're behind the eight ball. So what that means is don't talk about it when there's a problem. Talk about it before there's a problem and say, let's make some agreements.

   So collaborative problem solving is what we do. Collaborative problem solving is like let's talk about how to manage this because, by the time the kids ripping up the house and throw the controller through the TV and raging when you pull them off, you kind of missed it. Some people are there, but we want to try to get on it earlier. Now, why do kids do that? So a lot of parents don't understand Hey when we were kids a thousand years ago, a TV show was 30 minutes. It's over in 30 minutes that's it. Now when you're in a game, if you quit in the middle of a game, your friends get mad at you to get punished from the game. You could get banned from the game you lose rankings in the game. And so that's something to understand where are they spending their money, V bucks, things like that. That's not even real money that's money in a game, which is interesting because what do they want? 

  So if a kid starting to have trouble or an adult is having trouble, what are they getting out of it? Social connection, a sense of winning a sense of dominance If we don't approach it that way, you're hitting the surface. There are a lot of people trying to do treatment and manage people's time, but they're not getting at why the person's having a gaming issue that's the key.

Holly: And I absolutely a hundred percent believe that as well. You know gaming is something and screen time and access is something that comes up often in my private practice. And really that's what we need to look at. We need to look at not just those surface things because if you come in and say this is the new hours, or this is what we're going to do and then you're pulled off instantly. And so we really have to figure out what is happening behind that. You know, we don't continue to do things. We don't continue to take action and spend our time in areas that aren't important to us. So we have to figure out why is that important for them? Sometimes, like you said, a thousand years ago, right?

Jay: It was different times.

Holly: It was a very different time. And like you said, there's that 30-minute show that comes on once a week.  You know, I didn't even have an Atari my cousin did and I was so jealous. So it was really, really different. And you're absolutely right if you don't understand that part, you're not collaborative. Like you're not listening which I know it's hard to do because sometimes I just want to say, that's it cut off. 

Jay: People are parents they get frustrated. It happens, right?

 Holly: It does happen and we're only human, right? 

 Jay: If people want to binge-watch shows they can watch the whole series. It's like why? And take it one at a time. And it's a different world out there. So, you know, I think another thing to mention is digital natives versus people who are migrants and we're all migrants. We're all moving into this digital world the kids growing up are in there. So be aware, whatever tracking system, you come up with your kids, probably going to find a way around it. So check the history, turn off your router if you want, they'll go on the neighbor's router. They'll find a burner phone. So it's working on trust factor with your kid to say, we're working on this mutually together because you can constantly find apps, but they're chasing behind that all the time. 

   The other thing I would tell you is if your kid is starting to have a problem, that's when to get help, it is much harder when it's further down the line and it's a problem to try to undo all that and if I had any advice for parents, it's like call a professional when you're starting to get to those issues much easier to solve.

 Holly: Absolutely. And so, as you said again, knowing the why, understanding where they're coming from, and listening. Now when you really listen, what you're going to hear, and these is things that I've heard, I'm sure you have as well from your patients is that's the only place I'm cool or that's the only place -they’re the only ones who get me. And if that's what you think, and that's how you feel, that would be incredibly enticing to be in a place where finally somebody gets you

 Jay: Right and do they get you, do they act as they get you?

Holly: That's true too. 

Jay: Right and so that's important for kids to be aware of because people can be anybody they want on the internet and kids, you know, you only see if you read my book, you know, I talk about it in the book. But I talk about, you know, people's show like I call it Facebook, depression syndrome. People only talk about the good stuff in their life on Facebook. Generally, they don't put bad stuff. So they're putting a Mirage out there. And I think it's teaching your kid about that. If your kid's doing that, then it's important to look at why do they have no friends at their school what's going on with that? So if we don't deal with that, that's a problem. And I think that's important for parents to be aware of.

    Now again, the games are designed. They have psychologists hired by these companies to design the games, to be pulling people in okay you want to have the best-looking skin. That's what you look like in the game. You want to rank up. There are things you want to achieve and that's all in there. But you know talking to your kid, here is another point about other things in what I call terrestrial life takes longer to achieve. If you want to get better at basketball, it takes years.

  If want to get better the kid term for it is called grinding. If you grind enough at a video game, you will get leveled up. Okay. It's almost guaranteed that's why it's so tempting verses I could play basketball every day for 20 hours a day and never be LeBron James. So it ain't going to happen. So it's helping them find somewhere to be successful in. And you remember when we were kids, maybe you did something for a while, you did something different. And that's another thing I would encourage parents. It's like, maybe I'm trying basketball. Maybe I'm not so good. I moved to ski or I moved to different things that's okay. Helping them see that, you know, you gotta work at things. And that's another process that a lot of parents have trouble with getting their kids to do.

 Holly: And it really can be. And you mentioned a couple of really important things is if you feel like, and I know you've heard this in your practice with kids, you've worked where I, my own son has said this to me. It was heartbreaking. I just feel like I'm not good at anything, but this, or I know I can get better at this, and then the other kids will think I'm cool. 

Jay: It's a guaranteed end right. And so that's, what's so powerful about it. And they know that. And that's that grinding factor now again let's look at the other side of it. There are tons of kids that play video games that don't have over-consumption or addiction problems. Why? Because they have a balance of other things that make them feel good. Okay. Parents are saying, no, you can't sit inside and play video games all day, go out and play, you know get out of the house go do something. But they also have to get them places nowadays and with the virus, it's even tougher. And so I think that is important. Now, a lot of the kids are not actually able to do as many school activities because they're remote at school. So as the school's kicked back up, there's some of that, but getting kids with socially distance visits, going to the park, going outside, some of the things that we can do so that they're not so tempted to hop on other sites.

  And the other thing they're looking at is they're looking at people that are making it big. And so Twitch streaming is a huge thing right now they're watching people who are making millions off Twitch streaming. So if parents don't know what, this is, what it is, is you're not playing, you're watching somebody to play. And you're like, why would you want to do that? There's a lot of reasons, but one of which is you learn trade secrets. The second is it's really cool.  But again, that's who they identify with. That's their group. So we want to help them with normal development kids, turning adolescents, adolescents, seek a group anyhow. So if they have no group, they're going to move to that group.  Some of the other kids that we deal with think about there's marching band, or you're in drama club, or you are on a sports team, you had your posse. So helping kids find that posse is so important, you know, there are all those groups that are out there. It's just helping them find it but it's easier on video games. 

Holly: You know it is so much easier because like you said, your anxiety can be down too. So for instance, you know, it's not going to be, and you mentioned this earlier when you were talking for a child on the spectrum it's really hard just to walk up and start talking to someone like, how do you do that? How do you do it and not feel uncomfortable? Or how do you do it when your anxiety is out of control? You know, there are different things to think about too. Maybe social skills groups, maybe easing in, maybe starting a social skills group online, and then meeting at the park, you know, whatever that looks like.  because like you said, finding your people, finding your friends that are going to stand by you that are going to understand you, that are gonna like you, no matter what, that's, what they are looking for 

Jay: Find your posse. 

Holly: Find your posse 

Jay: I do have 15 different social skills groups that kids can be remote from anywhere in the world to participate in. They start at age six they go through age 26. And what you notice is what I call it is the skills behind the skills that are needed. So if you look at the surface, you look at okay, while they need to manage their video games, what's the skill behind it. I'm lacking social skills. What's the skill behind that? I don't know how to start a conversation in a group of people. Okay. Well, if you build those skills, then they, the skills behind the skills. Then you start chipping away at the problem rather than just managing the behavior. It's like treating a symptom you know I broke my arm, but I'm going to take some Aleve and I won't feel the pain no I think you need your arm fixed.

Holly: Yeah. And, and what ends up happening is, again, that understanding and the listening, I think parents, in general, feel this massive pressure. And when I talk to them, I could see that, you know, when they're telling me the number of hours their child is spending online, they'll sort of look down and, and almost feel a little ashamed about that. And I'd let them know I'm like, we're where we are right now and that's okay. So don't be ashamed of that. Don't feel that pressure is that we're starting with figuring out what that child needs how do we get them, what they need and that's where we are. And that's okay. I know a lot of parents are feeling pressured that, you know, they should only so-and-so said their physician, or whoever's said they're only supposed to have one hour and now I'm absolutely cutting it down to one hour and then the child, you know, fell apart.

Jay:  Does your physician have kids

Holly: Better yet? Does your physician have differently wired kids? Yeah.

Jay: Yeah. So, yeah so it's not as much about the hours as it is, is the balance. So again, let me come back to do, pay, to play set a minimum amount of time. Then if your kid socializes, your kid joins team, or your kid does things and let them build time with it, but also monitor what they're doing. Have an open discussion with them back and forth. Who were they talking to? How many hours are they doing those kinds of things turning in electronics at night because that's too tempting, wind downtime of slow down the, before bedtime on electronics, because we do know that there are wiring things with your brain with being able to go to sleep, at those periods of time?

 Holly: Right exactly and I, like you, said the balance because again, parents should not be ashamed out there. This is not about that so again, that sort of do this and then this I really do like that because it's clear. I think that when you mentioned earlier on as well, you were saying, if they are kind of consumed,, when am I going to get it again? And they might be asking over and over again and that's why I love, you know, I love lots of different things, but again, you know, those figuring out those skills, but while you're doing those skills, while you're doing those other activities, while you're doing that balance, also being able to show them when they're going to get it again because they can decrease in anxiety as well

Jay: That will decrease anxiety, but that's a sign of a person with a problem it's like anticipating when I'm going to get it next. You know the only thing I have is this in my life, this is the only place I feel good when you're getting there time to get help because that's a problem.

Holly: Exactly and so when you are looking for help it is so incredibly important when you're interviewing the therapist.  They are going to be working with is asking them some really specific questions. What is your experience with video game, overconsumption or digital addiction? So it really needs to be someone who understands that it's not just, let's put a limit on the day.

Jay: Yeah -two hours and then punish them for this. Ask them how many people they've seen some experience they have with this, all these things. Because I think that's really important because a lot of people now are hopping on the bandwagon of, I work with kids with gaming addiction, but they don't really have that experience.

Holly: Exactly. So just being a really smart consumer and saying, okay, you know, this is what I want to know. How many, as you said, kids, have you worked with it?  What concerns me too Dr. Berk is, you know, people have to understand too. There can be some dangerous behavior that comes out of simply removing a device from a child.

Jay:  Kids will get violent. Yeah.

 Holly: You definitely don't want that to happen. So working with a professional is incredibly important because that's not safe.

 Jay: Yeah. You want to do that on a plan full basis. -social skills groups for most of these kids, individual therapy with the kid to work with them on that plan and then helping the parents with preventative measures and what to do, because what happens is it gets dangerous when the parents don't have a plan of if the kid's losing it. So we'd always do a plan of if they start losing it, what are you going to do? Because you're not going to panic, you know, oh, this is what I'm going to do if they start getting violent or something like that.

 Holly: Right. And again, safety is always number one now, something that comes up now, especially with the pandemic is children are online learning right there. They're online. And what I've heard, and what I have seen is children will jump over to YouTube or to gaming.

Jay: Yeah. So some school districts actually can see where the kids at they can monitor the computer. There is software that the parents can have to be able to see what screen the kid is looking at. Now, another thing is I have parents that are working at home and the kid sits with them while they're doing their schoolwork with their computer open, that they can see that's important I think that they do that. But again, the other issue is thinking about why they're doing that. It's very hard to sit and stare at zoom all day, right? WA  WA for, especially if you have a kid who has ADHD or autism, I suggest the parents get to the school and modify that IEP for maybe what they need to keep them more engaged. Because zooming often doesn't work with those kids all day. Some kids, it will, some kids it won't

Holly: Right 

Jay: So that's a whole other chapter, but IEP modification is so important in this virus times.

Holly: Right. And you know, again, jumping off and sometimes it's only a minute or two, it's maybe not getting in the way of that child's learning perhaps they're able to turn in their assignments, they're able to keep their grades up. But then the other children that are really having a hard time and spending most of their time away from school, it can be really hard.

Jay: Right. I mean, I could have my phone sitting in front of this computer right now, and you wouldn't even know it on zoom. And I have kids that do that. And I think that some kids, for example, we're doing hybrid up in Ohio area where it's two days home, two days at school, and then switching kids. Some of my kids have IEP are four days at school because they have an IEP because they need to be engaged by teacher. They need to have their hand up. They need to participate, things like that.

   So I think that that's important. So again, think about it again. Why are they having a problem? Not just, I'm going to punish them because were on YouTube. Okay. And the other, which is interesting, is to look at what they're doing on YouTube. Ask them to show you sometime are watching gamers? Are they watching some interesting? Cause we want to learn about something different. You know, maybe they're bored with school. I don't know that I wouldn't want to go to school on zoom, but I realize it's a crazy world right now, but you know, what's the issue that they're having. So again, what's the reason behind the reason don't just slap a rule on it.

Holly: Right. And I think, again, sort of ending on that note is we've got to uncover those reasons or it's going to continue to happen. The plans will fail and again, it's about helping in ways and collaborating and listening. I know it can be hard again when you, when you grew up a thousand years ago, right. It doesn’t make sense.

Jay:  Thousand years ago, 

Holly: A thousand years ago when you can just turn the TV off

Jay: Or there was only one TV in the living room and that was it. So, you know 

Holly: Exactly 

Jay:  - in control of it.

Holly: So you have one and it's not the same, like you said, if you are still on, because you're in the middle of the game.

 Jay: Right? So it's teaching kids not about limiting their devices. Cause they can go from their iPod to their school Chrome book to their, you know, whatever we need to teach kids healthy consumption of electronics. That's the key because they're here to stay. So just managing it is not the key.

Holly: Exactly. Well, Dr. Berk, thank you so much for joining us. I know you had mentioned a little bit earlier about your services. I know people that are watching and listening are going to want to know more.  Tell us a little more about the services you offer since you are a specialist in this area.

Jay: Yeah. So I offer case consultation because sometimes working with a therapist in a different state and they want case consultation. So I offer that I do offer social skills groups from anywhere in the world. So we have kids from Singapore, from wherever, participating in groups because they can be remote or here. And I also offer an opportunity to come out and speak to groups as well I can also do that through telehealth or through zoom, speaking to parent groups, speaking to professional groups, training for clinical groups, even clinicians, we're looking for training on what we want to start this at our clinic. What do we do? 

  So again, my website is Jay Berk, J A Y B E R K P H d.com. Phone number is (216) 292-7170. And hopefully, this was helpful to parents and professionals out there. And I thank you, Holly, for inviting me.

 Jay: Thanks so much, Dr. Berk. We'll talk soon. Take care. 

 Outro: Thank you for joining me today. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe and write a review. This will allow me to continue providing great information for parents and professionals. Today's episode is brought to you by my free social skills, success guide available in the show notes and also on my website, Holly Blanc Moses.com take care.

Disclaimer 

All content provided is protected under applicable copyright, patent trademark, and other proprietary rights. All content is provided for informational and educational purposes only. No content is intended to be a substitute for professional medical or psychological diagnosis advice or treatment information provided does not create an agreement for service between Holly Blanc Moses, Crossvine Clinical Group, the interviewee Holly Blanc, Moses LLC, and the recipient. Consult your physician regarding the applicability of any opinions or recommendations with respect to your symptoms or medical condition or the symptoms or medical condition of your family member children or adults who show signs of dangerous behavior toward themselves or others should be placed immediately under the care of a qualified professional.